In my recent post about the tournament in Madison I mentioned that I wanted to discuss my Kromac2 lists. I've definitely had some decent success with the list, and I'm still doing a lot of debating on what the list needs/wants to be successful. Here has been my progression of testing so far:
Kromac, Champion of the Wurm
* Ghetorix
* Warpwolf Stalker
* Shadowhorn Satyr
* Rotterhorn Griffon
* Gorax
* Druid Wilder
Shifting Stones
* Stone Keeper
Shifting Stones
Druids of Orboros
* Druid Overseer
Blackclad Wayfarer
Played through this build a bunch and definitely enjoyed a decent amount of success. I do think that the three heavies in this build are fantastic. I definitely debated when I saw Kromac's rules as to whether a Gorax was needed, but it can do a lot of work itself being MAT 6, POW 12 and FURY 4. Its also the key to making any other light warbeasts amazing. I was finding that the Rotterhorn + Blackclad was alright, but not really doing anything that I really needed for this list I didn't think. Ideally it would be cool to put Acceleration on some Druids so they can Force Bolt and Vortex or charge and Vortex, but so far I haven't really found myself needing to do that. So that lead me to try the adjusted build that Pagani was playing.
Kromac, Champion of the Wurm
* Ghetorix
* Warpwolf Stalker
* Shadowhorn Satyr
* Gorax
* Druid Wilder
Shifting Stones
* Stone Keeper
Shifting Stones
Druids of Orboros
* Druid Overseer
Blackclad Wayfarer
Lord of the Feast
Not much is different in this build of course, the only change being Lord of the Feast in for the Rotterhorn. I think this is the build I've played the least of the ones that I'm going to discuss, but the only thing I found that I was missing out on was the Wilder being able to throw out 2 animi a turn and/or pulling fury off twice. That said, I was definitely having trouble getting Lord of the Feast to do the work he needed. I'm not sure if this was a matter of not giving this enough testing time yet, but I haven't been sold on it. The Blackclad isn't a bad 2 points, but I don't know that he's ever been overly necessary for the list.
Next I chatted with Crump and he let me know about a list he was playing, so I figured that I would give that a try:
Kromac, Champion of the Wurm
* Warpwolf Stalker
* Warpwolf Stalker
* Shadowhorn Satyr
* Razorwing Griffon
* Razorwing Griffon
* Gorax
* Druid Wilder
Shifting Stones
Druids of Orboros
* Druid Overseer
What I've really liked about this list is that the Razorwings do have some functionability against infantry, but really what makes them strong is that defensively the Razorwings are as sturdy as a Stalker on the feat turn (the difference is about 3 hit points I believe) for half as many points. Also, throwing Primal + Feat on them means that you can often have them take down a heavy target above their point value and/or get an assassination in there. I've had a decent amount of success with this list I'd say. I'd love to have Ghetorix or that 2nd unit of Shifting Stones back into the list, but the list has the ability to do a LOT of work.
Kromac, Champion of the Wurm
* Ghetorix
* Warpwolf Stalker
* Shadowhorn Satyr
* Razorwing Griffon
* Rotterhorn Griffon
* Gorax
* Druid Wilder
Shifting Stones
Druids of Orboros
* Druid Overseer
I wanted to see if I could get Ghetorix back into the list, and I definitely think that Ghetorix is a fantastic inclusion with Kromac2 as you might imagine. He can trade for basically anything in the game if you need him to. The Rotterhorn went back in to see if getting more work out of the animus was work while, at this point I'm not really use that it is unfortunately. Most of the games I've played with the list so far I'd rather that it was the Razorwing still.
So this has led me to start considering some other things for the list:
Argus - So, normally this would fall into the category of "crazy" talk but I started to think about it. At 4 points it could slot directly into the slot the Rotterhorn is occupying. At DEF 15 its going to be really hard to kill, and we're upgrading from 2 POW 11s to 2 POW 12s. We do lose the ability to play into infantry, but if there's THAT many dudes, I should be dropping my other list probably or just bricking up more. The Paralysis gun definitely seems like it might be interesting as well to do some control work since I'm bringing him against living armies. SPD 7 also makes him really interesting as a missile like the Razorwing, except Flight is good too.
Winter Argus - This idea was one of my earliest and I'm now thinking about it a little bit more. The ability to be DEF 15 and ARM 16 on its own makes it a pain to get rid of, further making it DEF 17-19 and ARM 18 on some turns seems to be a really good option, and using Awakened Spirit so that it can get work done and then be hard to kill.
Woldwatcher - Does precisely 2 things, Shield Guard for helping stop an errant shot to make a thing or 2 be more survivable and brings Earth's Blessing which prevents Knockdown and Stationary. Otherwise, Kromac doesn't do anything for this model and it costs 5 points, which is a bit heavy for me. I think that with more playing that I can get around needing this model.
Feral Warpwolf - Standard beat stick heavy that has more than a few options due to his flexible warps. That said, as I'm typing this I feel like a 2nd Stalker is almost always going to be a better option here.
Gnarlhorn Satyr - Extends threat for lots of things in the battlegroup, and has some solid synergy with the Razorwing. DEF 12 ARM 18 though with Primal Howl isn't really enough ARM or DEF to be terribly survivable, and throws are certainly superior to slams most of the time because they're more flexible.
Pureblood Warpwolf - Wraithbane is a fantastic animus. SP10 POW 14 is always good too, and his MAT and POW can be adjusted as well. Not to sure that needing to Warp Ghostly will ever be terribly necessary in this list, but it can become interesting indeed.
Riphorn Satyr - Very interesting animus for some additional scenario play that the list doesn't really possess, not to mention natural ARM 19 makes it pretty solid on feat turn, as well as free charges, and potential for a chain attack headbutt or throw. Only downside is that it lacks DEF 14 like many of the rest of these pieces.
Lord of the Feast - Discussed previously in one of the lists, might be worth more playing to see how it might do. He's always been a piece that needs patience and to find the right place to apply him to the battle. I'm not convinced here yet either, but I may go back do trying him out more.
Bloodtrackers - Only reason I really think of them as being interesting is that auto-hitting charges followed by Quick Work is great, the problem is that I don't think they help the Trollbloods or Skorne matchup at all.
The Death Wolves - I'm pretty sure this is actually the option that I'm looking for! The problem here is that they aren't released and won't be released until at least December of this year, so its not really worth doing too much testing here I don't think.
Alten Ashley - I know that Pagani is playing him in the list because he said that it helps his game against Runes of War which is one of the lists he wants to drop this into.
Viktor Pendrake - Planning to play into a lot of Hordes drops always makes Pendrake a good idea to consider. Not sold necessarily here either.
Dahlia & Skarath - Seems like an interesting idea, Skarath's animus is really good on anyone standing in Primal Howl, and Dahlia can definitely make some interesting plays with Haunting Melody. Probably more cute than good.
Feralgeist - Probably the correct 1 point option in the list if one is needed. Can help contest a scenario often, can also keep one of my many warbeasts doing something in the game. I especially like them when paired up with Riphorns.
Maximus - Really considered him instead of the Blackclad, but the fact that he's an Abomination and the Druids are too important to the list definitely stopped me.
Not sure where I'll go from here yet, I've liked my versions of the list where I had more stuff to do more work, but Shifting Stones do great support too, and help with a lot more order of activation stuff. We'll see what I try out and/or if anyone has any ideas I may give them a go.
Sunday, August 23, 2015
August 22nd - Madison WI - 6 pack Event #4 - 50pt SR2015
I'm wanting to review how I performed in this tournament, and I'm going to try to take the notes now while its still fresh enough in my mind. I'm not necessarily going to do a round by round, but try to hit on the things that I'm thinking and remembering so that I can try to improve my game.
Here are the lists that I brought:
Krueger the Stormlord
* Warpwolf Stalker
* Pureblood Warpwolf
* Gorax
* Druid Wilder
Shifting Stones
* Stone Keeper
Celestial Fulcrum
Una the Falconer
* Rotterhorn Griffon
* Rotterhorn Griffon
Blackclad Wayfarer
Blackclad Wayfarer
Tharn Bloodweavers
Kromac, Champion of the Wurm
* Ghetorix
* Warpwolf Stalker
* Shadowhorn Satyr
* Razorwing Griffon
* Rotterhorn Griffon
* Gorax
* Druid Wilder
Shifting Stones
Druids of Orboros
* Druid Overseer
This particular Jordan is known for playing basically 2 lists, he's got Butcher2 in theme with a host of Doom Reavers and he's got Butcher1's Claws of the Dragon theme force. Essentially there's dude spam, and then there's defensive spam (Iron Flesh, plus lots of Shield Wall). For the Doom Reavers I definitely wanted to play Krueger2, but I didn't feel good about my game with him into 30 DEF 13 ARM 14, 18 or 22 depending on the turn troopers, plus dealing with clam jacks is always frustrating. I think he won't drop Doom Reavers because of Krueger2. Turns out, he doesn't drop Claws because he doesn't like SPD 2 Clam Jacks. Reviewing this with another Jordan and re-thinking it, I basically lost list chicken and should have just dropped Krueger2.
He wins the die roll after we roll off 3 times basically due to his having a +1 for a theme force benefit. Going first would have been a massive help for me in this scenario, because then I could be the one bullying the zone, instead, its his 8 units of Doom Reavers doing that. The one thing that was extremely fortuitous in this match was that my Druids basically didn't break the entire game, which is fairly unlikely. However, the big mistake I made here is that I needed to push a LOT harder up the table so that I could contest the zones, but doing so was going to lead to my demise I think.
What I learned here is that I probably should have played Krueger into this pairing, and in playing Kromac I needed to do more to contest scenario. Not sure what that would look like, but I need to think about that perhaps some too.
Result: Loss on scenario.
He has Calandra, not in theme and Borka2 in theme. Given that I'm playing Circle I'm pretty much expecting Borka because the Calandra list seems like its geared to take on a lot of dudes that I don't have in either list. My answer for Trollbloods is almost always the same thing ... Kromac2. He goes ahead and drops Borka2.
The one thing I wanted to be careful of was that the War Wagon didn't hit something directly with that 5" AOE and knock down my battlegroup, when relying on DEF this is a pretty important thing to watch for, which should surprise no one. I'm not going to get into details on this one, it was a pretty short game. I went first, aggressively charged up the table. He then dumped his 5 fury into the Krielstone, feated and charged Borka up. So, nothing is going to get more than a single hit into Borka, but I can get the Stalker at POW 22, Ghetorix at POW 23 and the Shadowhorn at POW 18, all boosted on him. I kill him without even using Ghetorix. He needed to have transfers, or better placement if he was going for that move which we discussed after. Newer player, so that happens sometimes.
Brian had the "very original" pairing of Calandra in Elemental Evolutionism and Doomshaper in Runes of War. I expected to see Runes of War, which is what I got. As it turns out, he's played this game a bunch of times which led to him being gun shy about engaging. I won the die roll, and moved up the table very aggressively, in the middle of the circles, but contesting both. This game didn't teach me too many things, other than to remember that Kromac can be a bully, and identifying what things help make my game stronger. Eventually I was able to clear out the zone on my right, and basically over some turns I was able to win on scenario.
Dave had Krueger2 and Morvahna2. I considered, given that Destruction is a strong scenario for Krueger to play that, but hsi Krueger list was all beasts basically, and my Krueger list does more against dudes, and Kromac should be able to bully the zone hard, plus I can use Shifting Stones and the fact that a forest was in the middle of the zone, to keep from being pushed from it.
For the most part my plan worked, got into the zone on my 2nd turn, got enough Druids dead so that mine would be effective. Put my battlegroup into the zone, cast Primal Howl, had 3 transfers, and Druid clouds around and was able to take out the objective. I score 3 control points. At this point a lot happened and he was able to assassinate Kromac. I'm not going to get into everything that happened, he took nearly a 40 minute turn, but I do want to discuss some points:
Here are the lists that I brought:
Krueger the Stormlord
* Warpwolf Stalker
* Pureblood Warpwolf
* Gorax
* Druid Wilder
Shifting Stones
* Stone Keeper
Celestial Fulcrum
Una the Falconer
* Rotterhorn Griffon
* Rotterhorn Griffon
Blackclad Wayfarer
Blackclad Wayfarer
Tharn Bloodweavers
Kromac, Champion of the Wurm
* Ghetorix
* Warpwolf Stalker
* Shadowhorn Satyr
* Razorwing Griffon
* Rotterhorn Griffon
* Gorax
* Druid Wilder
Shifting Stones
Druids of Orboros
* Druid Overseer
Round 1 vs Jordan B
Kromac2 vs Butcher2
IncomingThis particular Jordan is known for playing basically 2 lists, he's got Butcher2 in theme with a host of Doom Reavers and he's got Butcher1's Claws of the Dragon theme force. Essentially there's dude spam, and then there's defensive spam (Iron Flesh, plus lots of Shield Wall). For the Doom Reavers I definitely wanted to play Krueger2, but I didn't feel good about my game with him into 30 DEF 13 ARM 14, 18 or 22 depending on the turn troopers, plus dealing with clam jacks is always frustrating. I think he won't drop Doom Reavers because of Krueger2. Turns out, he doesn't drop Claws because he doesn't like SPD 2 Clam Jacks. Reviewing this with another Jordan and re-thinking it, I basically lost list chicken and should have just dropped Krueger2.
He wins the die roll after we roll off 3 times basically due to his having a +1 for a theme force benefit. Going first would have been a massive help for me in this scenario, because then I could be the one bullying the zone, instead, its his 8 units of Doom Reavers doing that. The one thing that was extremely fortuitous in this match was that my Druids basically didn't break the entire game, which is fairly unlikely. However, the big mistake I made here is that I needed to push a LOT harder up the table so that I could contest the zones, but doing so was going to lead to my demise I think.
What I learned here is that I probably should have played Krueger into this pairing, and in playing Kromac I needed to do more to contest scenario. Not sure what that would look like, but I need to think about that perhaps some too.
Result: Loss on scenario.
Round 2 vs Davis B
Kromac2 vs Borka2
Two FrontsHe has Calandra, not in theme and Borka2 in theme. Given that I'm playing Circle I'm pretty much expecting Borka because the Calandra list seems like its geared to take on a lot of dudes that I don't have in either list. My answer for Trollbloods is almost always the same thing ... Kromac2. He goes ahead and drops Borka2.
The one thing I wanted to be careful of was that the War Wagon didn't hit something directly with that 5" AOE and knock down my battlegroup, when relying on DEF this is a pretty important thing to watch for, which should surprise no one. I'm not going to get into details on this one, it was a pretty short game. I went first, aggressively charged up the table. He then dumped his 5 fury into the Krielstone, feated and charged Borka up. So, nothing is going to get more than a single hit into Borka, but I can get the Stalker at POW 22, Ghetorix at POW 23 and the Shadowhorn at POW 18, all boosted on him. I kill him without even using Ghetorix. He needed to have transfers, or better placement if he was going for that move which we discussed after. Newer player, so that happens sometimes.
Round 3 vs Brian K
Kromac2 vs Doomshaper1
OutflankBrian had the "very original" pairing of Calandra in Elemental Evolutionism and Doomshaper in Runes of War. I expected to see Runes of War, which is what I got. As it turns out, he's played this game a bunch of times which led to him being gun shy about engaging. I won the die roll, and moved up the table very aggressively, in the middle of the circles, but contesting both. This game didn't teach me too many things, other than to remember that Kromac can be a bully, and identifying what things help make my game stronger. Eventually I was able to clear out the zone on my right, and basically over some turns I was able to win on scenario.
Round 4 vs Dave B
Kromac2 vs Krueger2
DestructionDave had Krueger2 and Morvahna2. I considered, given that Destruction is a strong scenario for Krueger to play that, but hsi Krueger list was all beasts basically, and my Krueger list does more against dudes, and Kromac should be able to bully the zone hard, plus I can use Shifting Stones and the fact that a forest was in the middle of the zone, to keep from being pushed from it.
For the most part my plan worked, got into the zone on my 2nd turn, got enough Druids dead so that mine would be effective. Put my battlegroup into the zone, cast Primal Howl, had 3 transfers, and Druid clouds around and was able to take out the objective. I score 3 control points. At this point a lot happened and he was able to assassinate Kromac. I'm not going to get into everything that happened, he took nearly a 40 minute turn, but I do want to discuss some points:
- There was a point where a Rotterhorn was killed that had a single Fury on it, I chose NOT to reave that Fury because I was already pretty high on Fury. This was a HUGE mistake as it meant that I was one transfer short at the end of the game. Surviving that turn was more important than being concerned with frenzying beasts
- I should have warped my Ghetorix and Stalker for Strength. I hadn't considered that he'd port a Stalker into my Stalker to try to throw it, but it does make sense to try. Either way, there was 0 benefit at that stage of the game for him to Warp Prowl (same for Ghetorix).
- I need to pay more attention to my transferring, and possibly spend time thinking, I was up well over 30 minutes of clock and I could have afforded it, the first damage roll from his Ghetorix should have been the transfer, and then I live.
- It was probably, honestly, a not too great odds assassination, however, when playing a Warlock like Kromac2 who's designed to bully the table and put people in an awkward position, they will go for a kill and I need to do what I can to prevent it. I probably could have gotten away without upkeeping Awakened Spirit, and I should have taken the transfer.
- Another note that dying by a throw brings up, a decent number of the games I've lost have been because I'm at DEF 18 and then end up losing either to Kromac becoming Knocked Down or Stationary. I'm not entirely sure what the change should be here, but I need to be a lot more aware of it.
Game 5 vs Rich B
Kromac2 vs Xerxis2
Fire Support
This was a fantastic game, we both knew what we'd be facing the whole time. This was an attrition slog that ended with him only having Xerxis2 and Tiberion, and me winning on scenario because he couldn't get there. I think I may have let him use the Krea too much and should have sent something after it sooner, definitely something I should keep in mind. Its another one of those things where making me DEF 7 would have been awful. Definitely enjoyed this game!
Some general considerations I need to make, I think I'll maybe do another entry to discuss that though.
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